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Hello everyone who loves Heroes of Might and Magic series.

When the idea of conducting a tournament popped out in my head, I understood that as it is the thing for the players, first of all it is necessary to know what the players think about it, how they imagine an ideal contest and its rules.

If you want to contribute your own comments, please fill the Form directly online.
Thank you all for your time and sharing your ideas how to create the ideal tournament .

BES the Black Dragon


Beltion
Depends on how much you trust the players.





A good question without answer. Either you trust him. Or you don't... simple as that.


Fnord
I think you will need *some* method of handling any disputes if any should crop up. If the rules are really clear and the maps are tested, there shouldn't be many problems but there's always the chance. So yes, you'll probably need someone to act as a moderator/map checker, just in case.

AngelA
Moderators- should check maps beforehand for balance, examine endgame savegames, any autosaves from crashes (a good spot to cheat) and endgame saves.
If a game is suspicious, they might suggest a rematch, or a forfeit. I read somewhere else that you plan to have 5 computers linked- are you planning to have people be neutral observers in game?

Kriton
Not necessary, but if so, they should probably take on a role similar to what Zowwie and SkyBroad have done with the HTO.

Simon Mooncalf
I think there should be a few, just in case... They should be there to moderate if players differ in opinion. :-)


If a difference on how the game should have been played. On what should have been done after a crash... You need some respected players to settle any dispute. 

Lifetaker
yes you should have mods in the game just to make sure nothing happens.

KSummers
Not necessary per se, but I think it's a GREAT idea.


Beltion
Games should be played for honour (and for fun). IMO playing for cash or any other prize would sort of ruin it.







a web page and a picture of a nice trophy, that's all there needs to be.

Fnord
This depends on how much you can afford. Only the person putting up prizes can decide how much he/she wishes to put up. I think any prize amount (be it $5 or $50) is going to be appreciated. Putting up games (prechosen) or choice of games is also fine. Or a choice by the winners of what they want (cash or game). Any of these can work.
One important thing to keep in mind is that not all players will accept a prize, especially if they have a good job and enough money to buy any game they wish. So you may want to establish ahead of time what happens to any non-accepted prizes (e.g., donated to a specific charity, or given out randomly to a non-winning participant, or whatever).

AngelA
I think that it would depend on the number of participants- myself, I would consider a free game an adequate prize. If we're going all out, perhaps a piece of hardware for first prize. Money is more convenient, of course, but somehow  less meaningful. For larger sums, sponsorship might be necessary- which is a whole other consideration.

Kriton
Well, personally, I think money and/or prizes are OK, but this may take away some of the fun from playing. People will be so focused on winning that portsmanship/comradery might suffer. It may even entice cheating, just to win the prizes.

Dragon Master
the prize hmmm i don't know maybe have it so the could cheat in one level of the next tournament?????

Simon Mooncalf
Something like a free game or an special (home made) Heroes (or Black Dragon) T-shirt would be just as fun.




I would start cheatin' if you said Kings Bounty was the prize <grin> But a game could be game by choice of the winner if available... However I would like to win a T-shirt, cap etcetera... anything that is unique :-)









Lifetaker
It all depends on the number of participants, I think a game of choice would be enough. I wouldn't give a money as a prize.

KSummers
I think something small but meaningful, like a t-shirt (either an official Heroes t-shirt or one specially made saying something about being a Heroes tourney winner)


Beltion
I don't think there are technical means to stop all cheating. Perhaps playing small fast maps and playing them in one session could give players less time to cheat, but that in return would have negative effects.

Fnord
See answer to 1 above. But in general, requiring a saved game (or several saves at different points in the game even) to be sent in usually goes a long way towards this.

AngelA
If you have a moderator "sitting in" on each game, that would eliminate it, as far as I could tell.

Kriton
I don't think you can ever eliminate cheating, but it can be reduced by careful moderation of the games and shorter game times (smaller or quicker maps), so they could be played in fewer sessions.

Simon Mooncalf
After a crash have them send in the autosave before the crash and a direct safe when the game has started again. And have the endgame saved and send in.

BES, my buddy, I'm the cheatchecker on the AW-tournament.You don't want me to tell how to check in public. Anyway, it is very tough to cheat in H3, except between breaks... But saves games will give a cheater away :-)

Lifetaker
You can't eliminate everything, but you can try to prevent it, by using Medium Maps and by using Mods.

KSummers
I think having a moderator is a good deterrent. I don't agree with smaller or "faster" maps because that changes the whole game and each player's strategies but I agree that each person should be willing to set aside long stretches of time (ie. 6 hours?) for each game in the hopes that the game could be completed in one sitting.



Fnord
A team tournament is fun but hard to organize. It's hard to get several people together and even harder if it has to take multiple sessions. Maybe if you used a small map and/or a time limit or something this would be easier. I'm not sure how you would combine it with the other tournaments though--maybe if "winning" overall depends on accumulating points from winning single matches, the team tournament could also give some points towards your total.

AngelA
I think you'd have to have a separate tourney. And, although it takes delicate scheduling,
the best "team" experience is 2 on 2- allied multiplay.

Kriton
Excellent ideas. Perhaps the different rounds could be setup as 1v1, 2v2, maybe even a handicapped 1v2, 2v3, or more - a "gauntlet" of rounds so to speak, with the odds against you increasing each round until you lose. Then the one who has the most wins, takes the "crown", with the second most next and so on.

You could also have every competitor play all the maps. If you lose a particular type of map, then you're out of that "category". Playoffs for each category after everyone's played once. For example:
-Categories
~~Singles
1v1
FFA 3 P's
FFA 4 P's
FFA 5 P's
FFA 6 P's
FFA 7 P's
FFA 8 P's
~~Teams
2v2
3v3
4v4
~~Handicap Singles/Teams
1v2
1v3
2v3
2v4
This may seem excessive, but what the heck! >;-)
You could have prizes/winners from each category. More than one category can be won by same players.

Dragon Master
Yeah there should be a team tournament


Lifetaker
I would like to see a team tournament but organizing this could be very difficult, because all the different time zones

KSummers
one or the other 1:1 or 2:2




Beltion
Well, talk to Rex in the Comm about how hard it is to get 2 sets of 2 people to show up at the same time.
How they could be combined? Well, perhaps having "brackets" like in Rex's tourney. (4 teams in one group, all play eachother, top 2 go on.) and then after the bracket play has been finished, break up the teams and make it a single player contest.

Well, when Rex used it, most people just signed on and let Rex do the teams.

Fnord
I don't have much experience in this but if you go with a points system, you could guarantee everyone 3 matches plus the team game. If they win at least one of the 3 single matches, they could have another 3. Something like that...then you could take the top winners from there and do playoffs. But that might all take too long. :-)

AngelA
Again, depends on number of participants. I'd say at least 2 losses before elimination- anyone can have a bad day. This is a little harder to set up- single elimination is the easiest, especially when you have a power of two (ie 16, 32, 64) players.

Dragon Master
i think that if you lose 3 times you should be out of the tournament but should be able to watch the other players play
and maybe after people get kicked out of the tournament from loseing so many games you should have some maps for them to play just for fun like one map will you only get one hero and can not get anymore heroes and maybe a game were you can only recuit level 1 creatures and will get no joins and maybe even one were you can only get one level one spell and the lowest level shooter unit and lowest level non shooter unit in the town

yeah i thought it would be cool to have a tournament in a tournament so the people who get knocked out can still play 

Simon Mooncalf
-If you have as many as 64 contestants and every round would be a month, it
would take (only) 6 months to have a (1st) winner, if you use sudden death (maybe a possibility to rematch against the same player).
-month 2: the 32 losers of the first round could then enter in a second round against each other, which would result in the 2nd winner. (3rd prize)
-month 3, the 16 losers playing for 1st winner could enter a competition for 3rd place (2nd prize), the 16 losers for second winner could enter a competition for 4th
place. (4th prize)
-repeat process in month 4, to have a 5th & 6th, 7th & 8th winner.
-in month 5 and 6 the losers don't get another chance, but at least they would only have to wait two months for the new tournament to start.
Fringe benefit is that by month 5 and 6 the players capabilities will be evened out, which makes it more fun to play! If you decide to start another tournament after six months, you can make a position list on the wins in the first tournament.

I would ;-) If you want to shorten it, every round should be played per week. That would definitly need online moderators since not showing up would be losing by default. Heck of a lot of administration :-(

Lifetaker
Most fair: two losses.
Most practical one loss.

KSummers
I think double-elimination is fair. Single elimination is very tough because someone could have just had a bad day or some very bad luck.





Beltion
I can't say I like the idea. Specially since I don't think it's possible to do in AB/ROE and thus would limit the game to SOD owners.

Can't be done. You can disable heroes and artifacts, but not spells or secondary skills. The only way would be to take out all heroes with a spellbook, and not let anyone build a mage guild. (hehe... Stronghold & Fortress would rule in that case.)

Fnord
Could be interesting.

AngelA
If it was possible using RoE only (i'm not sure about this) then it would be interesting. As long as the players knew ahead of time about the limitation.

Kriton
Sure, as long as it's clear before starting the map.

Simon Mooncalf
If it would restrict players to using SoD, that would be a shame.


You are the boss <grin>


Lifetaker
You mean no magic heroes or no spells at all?








KSummers
Only if the only towns available are Stronghold and Fortress or something. That might be interesting.



Beltion
and no Library for tower, I assume?
Sure, why not. It could be interresting. As long as you mention it in advance so people can choose might heroes.

Beh, who cares about 'em pansy mages!


Fnord
Probably not, because I think the magic is part of the balance in a town. So if you remove higher level magic from some towns, they become significantly weaker than some of the non magic-heavy towns. Better to customise spells and stuff on particular maps.

AngelA
I personally like this idea, but again, the players would have to know ahead of time.

Kriton
That's really hard to say. I personally think the towns are pretty balanced as they are. Limiting all towns to 3rd level mage guild might handicap those towns that normally can build 4th and/or 5th level mage guilds.

Dragon Master
could have it so that all towns could chose from 5 levels of the mage guild and only level 1-4 creatures or level 1-7 creatures and only a level 2 or 3 mage guild

Simon Mooncalf
see the above




Lifetaker
No that way the barbarians and beastmasters would get an advantage.












KSummers
Absolutely not. Each towns has it's strengths. To take away a Dungeon's 4th and 5th level mage guild and Mana vortex takes away too much. And a Dungeon is actually pretty weak untill you get the Blackies - ESPECIALLY with no magic (or limited magic). See my point? If you wanna have a MIGHT battle, just have Stronghold vs Fortress on one of the maps.





Beltion
if it's purely as a "side-show" and has no influence on the tourney itself. People who just wish to play HoMM shouldn't have to start writing up witty bios in order to play a tourney.

Fnord
Maybe..not sure.

AngelA
It should be optional, I think -but if this is long term, it does build community and is something that will draw interest.

Kriton
Sure. It might even be an alternate contest for those who are better at writing fiction than playing Heroes. >;-)

Simon Mooncalf
Yes, it definitly is!! ;-)

Lifetaker
Yes that's a good idea, this way players who are'nt very good at Heroes could still enjoy the tournaments.

KSummers
I don't think it's a big deal either way. Fine if you do, fine if you don't.



Beltion
no "longest game" IMO. But the "fastest win" sounds cool. You could really se some blazing fast agressive play if you promised something like "your next loss will not count" to the fastest win.

Yep, more daring gameplay could make for more interesting games.

Fnord
Sure. :-)

AngelA
Victory using the lowest level troops, closest final battle are just some other ideas.




Kriton
The possibilities here are virtually limitless.
Biggest Upset
Best Tactics
Best Use of a Spell
Best Town Defender
Best Town Sieger
and so on. >;-)

Simon Mooncalf
Not so sure about this... unless all players play the same map and same position.




I figured that, but I wanted to make sure. So round 1 is all played in the same map.. I like that idea.

Lifetaker
You mean like:closest win. Most money * reseource. Highest level of Hero? yes I like the idea of that

KSummers
Sure - just as "honerary" thing. No prizes for that though.


AngelA
If you want to be online while every game goes on- scheduling may be tricky. You've got heroes all around the globe. You may have to schedule opponents (at least initially) by time zone/availabililty (which is not necessarily the same thing- someone from North America who likes to play in the daytime can play against someone from Europe who likes to play in the evening). I'm also not clear on whether all these matches are meant to be between two players, or if some would be against AI, but with a moderator "watching" the game.
This is a very interesting idea- I may have some more suggestions as it develops I'd also suggest contacting webmasters/league officials of sites that have tourneys,
to get their suggestions. Their experience would likely be very helpful.


Dragon Master
first of all it will be free right and i don't have armagedons blade yet do you need it if so i will get it




well one place wanted me to pay so i just left 
well i will get AB soon and i am not sure how to make it so people can waych but i have done it before somehow 

KSummers
Are you really going to run a tournament? Are you ready for the vast amount of time and effort it will take? Do you have map makers? AND testers? Are you ready to spend an ENORMOUS amount of time just scheduling the games? Are you ready for people to complain at you for a various number of reasons? I'm just curious if you're really planning on doing it or just bringing up for the sake of discussion.



About trust. How to deal with this issue is you have never met this player before? Of course, one should trust everyone, that's why the question was asked to discover what the players think about it.

In this case moderator idea sounds very good. And specially designed maps for one session. And strict rules.


Yes, I also think that they will be required. Where can I find them? 
Of course I will place at home 5 computers, but will it be enough?




yes,, I plan to have neutral observers inside the actual gameplaying in order to look at the game. That's why specially designed maps are supposesed to be made that every game will be possible to finish in one session.




Yep. It seems I have to shoulder this tremendous weight.



What do you mean 'differ in opinion'? Opinions about what? How and who makes moves? Or something else?










Why do you think that it isn't a necessity? How it is possible to handle without them?


Prizes. I don't know for sure about this yet. But I am thinking that prizes in any form were never the unnecessary things. It could be different prizes, not necessarily only cash. Though, there are people who would appreciate cash too. But the reason of the questions in first place was to learn waht actually players themselves think about all this.

I understand your reasoning. Let's wait what will be responses from others.


Yes, though many say that the game is needed for the fun, but I think that the prize is the good idea too. Because the prize is not a main stimulus in the tournament, but a sign of appreciation of those who won, and for all this time the winners have invested in the game to hone their skills, to all those hours of game playing online or alone against computer.
Everything could be changed, and if majority of the players will reject cash as form of a prize, it could be something else: games, software, hardware, etc...




I am considering all possibilities, and not the last one in this are the opinions of people. What about sponsors - I don't need them. I have my own resources that wil be quite enough as I own my company.




Okay,let's think together, what is the best way to have them and avoid all negative effects on people.







Not bad idea. But what to do if the winner wants to receive as the prize a game that was produced a long time ago or is impossible to find anywhere? :) Probably it will be good idea to talk with 3DO about Heroes IV as a prize. :p

King'sBounty? No problem with this, my friend. :) This one I can fix. I have KB on my ancient (but in perfect condition) 286comp, which I have spared as an antique. The only problem is that it has only 5,25 disk driver. The size of KB is 800kb. If you have a possibility to transfer data from 5,25 disk to the usual one or CD or maybe directly to your comp, I can send you copy of KB. :b  Unfortunately can't send you a comp iself as I'm hoping to store it for another 50 years when it'll cost a lot as an unique artefact of the 20th century ;)







What do you think about games, software or some fantasy styled statuetts with the special gravings for an occasion with names of winners?


Cheating and one session as a preventive measure. Well, I thought about this idea too.













Agreed. But actually plan is not "fewer" but only one session.




How this saves could help?














OK, maps are designed in such way that 6 hours will ne safely enough to finishe them (providing the normal conditions of connection and no technical emergencies). Will people be willing to find these 6 hours for a game. What do you think must be done if a person can play only, say, 4 hours.



Yes, I agree with you that it is a very tough question, and requires more detailed working-out. Probably somebody will have some good ideas...







Thank you very much for the idea. separate tourney. I didn't hink about it. maybe it worth considering.


Increased odds agaist players. very cool. it only needs to work out all details of this system. It must work as swiss watches.




There are things to think about. I will look very carefully, and will think.
































What would you prefer 1:1 or 2:2? Why do you think it isn't possible to combine the both types?




How it could be done if a player isn't a member of any team? If he hasn't friends or connections, nobody knows him/her and he just a single opponent?




Rex? Do you mean Rex Mundi?



I think that this won't be quite comfortable for other players.






It is still one of the most difficult detail. What to do if it will be not even number?





Why do you think that 3 times? Why not 2? Watching? Of course, just tell me how to do this. 
Games after Tournament. Wow! Interesting idea. Tournament in a Tournament.












It sounds as good system, but the contest will be ab.6 months long. Will people want to commit themselves to such a long enterprise?






























You speak about 2 losses and chance of bad luck. Don't you think that two losses acceptance will be too relaxing for players as they will know thta they can safely allow themselves to loose at least once because of bad luck or any other reason?



I think that it is possible to do such a round in AB too... Simply switch off all heroes that can learn magic and all spells.

Yes, one has to think it over....









Yes, I also agree that it culd bring extra fun and thrill in a game. Of course it will be announced beforehand about the particularies of each round. I am not a monster.




No, I plan AB as the platform. If I can't take away all spells, then perhaps I can leave only 1st level spell, like Protection from some Elemental.




In the round whith no magic at all it is supposed that all magic heroes (those who have spell books) will be disabled. With spells it is more difficult as it seems that all spells can't be disabled. Maybe it will be possible to find a compromise with leaving a couple of most useless spells like Protection from Elementals or something... (Dragonnette the Moderator)

Why do you think that other towns will automatically loose to Stronghold or Fortress if magic will not be available in a round game.



Unfortunately the Library is necessary to upgrading of dwelling. Can't be eliminated. 



Poor Arch Mages. Why you want to offend them so dearly????


Well... I think that Magic Towns could stand off from the Non-Magic Towns. It all depends from the player, and his/her strategy.








Well, in this point I can't agree with you. Higher magic gives towns only advantages, if it will be eliminated, it can't possibly weaken these towns. The example of this is single scenario "Might, not Magic"






Limitation of Magic will not cripple the strength of the towns. I don't think that Castle will be substantionally weaker if the 4th level of magic will be taken away from it in this round.


It isn't necessarily that Fortress, Stronghold and Castle will get an immediate advantage before the other formerly full-magic available towns. It seems that too low credit is giving to the ability of a player to adapt his/her technique and strategy to the situation at hand (everyone will be in the same situation with possibility to choose towns, heroes and plan their strategies beforehand as all info about partcularies of the not-magic round will be known in advance, no nasty surprises here  ) The idea for this magic limited rounds was to bring more challange to the game. (Dragonnette the Moderator)


On what basis you think that Dungeon without 4th and 5th levels of magic will be weak, and without Mana Vortex too. Mana Vortex isn't an ultimate remedy from all troubles. 4th and 5th levels could give you not especially exceptional spells like thos: Frenzy, Slayer, Sorrow, Inferno, Magic Mirror. Those are very rare in using. Did you use them often? What will be a loss without them in magic for such towns as Dungeon, Tower, Rampart or any other town with usually full set of magic levels?


If it will be it will be only as completely side thing not conected to the actual tournament at all, just for fun. Maybe players will offer some extra side-things just for fun besides it.





















If it will be done, what is your opinion - when it will be better to do in regard to the main contest - before, during or after?



The fastest game nomination. Well, it really sounds great. A player will take a chance. It will be his/her decision only. Some creativity will be good.

Risk. I completely agree with you in this one.






Thank you very much for very cool ideas. I like especially the one about the closest victory. I was in such situations myself when one creature with a couple of hit points was left from the whole army and it claimed the victory.


Oof. So many. How I can keep a look out for them all? Can we done a bit less, please? :)







Players will play nearly similar maps at each particular round. But someone could play more aggressively and faster when others will play slower game. And as AngelA mentioned it is really possible to make the closest victory with only one standing creature. :b












Schedule. All matches wil be planned and agreed upon with all involving players. I plan to enlist family members and friends as well in watching.
Matches. player vs. player with moderator as not playing (just clicking on turn button) inside a game. But your idea about player vs. AI and moderator watching is worth considering too.
Webmasters suggestions. I would be really happy to contact more experience in this stuff people if only know how and with whom.... Can you advice anyone in particular?
New ideas. Thanks. If any will be, I would only appreciate. Once again thank you very much for all the time you spent to voice your views. Always happy to see you.


Of course, my friend. Anybody who will want, would be able to play in the Tournament. And how can one even speak about pay? Brrr! *Dragon shudders*
Yes, I think that AB will be used, since not many people yet have SoD.





- Am I ready to launch a tournament? Why not? providing of course there will be enough willing to participate in it.
- Time. I think that I'll have enough time and assistants to conduct it and fix scheduling as well.
- Maps. I have mapmakers and testers, though should anyone like to lend me a helpful hand with this, it will be appreciated.
- Complains. If I'll be successfull in organising this contest I'll try to and hope to avoid any negative reactions from the players by the strict rules and by this discussion we have here, though of course, I'm quite conscious of the fact that I'm not insured against such complaints as there always is a chance of an upset person.
1.Is it necessary to have moderators in a game, and if it is, what will be their role in practice?













































2.What kind of sums you visualize as the fair prizes for the first 10 best of the best? Or it must be not monetary prizes but something else?






































































3.What measures could be done to eliminate any kind of cheating in a game?









































4.Though the supposed tournament is for a single player, but is it a good idea to have a team tournament as well and how they could be combined?






















































5.What elimination system of the tournament you think is the most fair (after the first loss, after the two losses, something else)?













































































6.Is it a good idea to have a round where no magic using will be possible at all (like in original single map "Might, no Magic" of Shadow of Death)?



































7.Is it a good idea to have in one of the rounds the system of even odds with Mage Guilds for all towns, meaning that all towns will have the 3rd level as the highest level of spells and Dungeon will not be able to build Mana Vortex?


















































8.Is it a good idea to have biographies of the participants and the biography contest?
























9.Is it a good idea to have several other nominations in the tournament, for example: for the fastest victory, for the longest game in tournament , something else?



































10.Other Comments


































Question:                         Replies:                              My comments:  
New Heroes Tournament
Rules Discussion
Hello everyone who loves Heroes of Might and Magic series.

When the idea of conducting a tournament popped out in my head, I understood that as it is the thing for the players, first of all it is necessary to know what the players think about it, how they imagine an ideal contest and its rules.

If you want to contribute your own comments, please fill the Form directly online.
Thank you all for your time and sharing your ideas how to create the ideal tournament .

BES the Black Dragon

Thank you all for your time and shared views.

Do you have comments?
Have you any ideas?
The little green dragon is waiting.
The second page of the discussion
Read new comments on the page 2.